Big Picture Interviews
Talking Big Data and Big Results with the Head of B2B Marketing Products for LinkedIn
Welcome to a Big Picture Channel Vodcast and Podcast on TotalPicture Radio. This is Peter Clayton and joining me today through the magic of Skype Video is Russell Glass Head of B2B Marketing Products for LinkedIn Marketing Solutions.
Watch the Video Now:
I first met Russ when he was the founder, president and CEO of Bizo, a little B2B audience marketing and data platform that was acquired by LinkedIn for $175mm in 2014. Russ is Co-author of a new book titled The Big Data-Driven Business, published by Wiley.
By the way, Russ's co-author, Sean Callahan, was the marketing director at Bizo and is now the senior manager of content management at LinkedIn) What I like about this book is Russ and Sean are not talking theory, they're not blowing smoke - they've accomplished and practiced much of what they're writing about - namely How to Use Big Data to win Customers, Beat Competitors, and Boost Profits. Russ and Sean can check-off all those boxes.
The Internet's benefits have accrued mostly to a "tiny group of young white men in black limousines" Andrew Keen
"Today, as the Internet expands to connect almost everyone and everything on the planet, it's becoming self-evident that this is a false promise. The evangelists are presenting us with what in Silicon Valley is called a "reality distortion field" - a vision that is anything but truthful. Instead of a win-win, the Internet is in fact, more akin to a negative feedback loop feedback loop in which we network users are its victims rather than its beneficiaries. Rather than the answer, the Internet is actually the central question about our connected twenty-first-century world."
The more we use the contemporary digital network, the less economic value it is bringing to us. Rather than promoting economic fairness, it is a central reason for the growing golf between the rich and the poor and the hollowing out of the middle class. Rather than making us wealthier, the distributed capitalism of the new network economy is making most of the poorer. Rather than generating more jobs, this digital disruption is a principal cause of our structural unemployment crisis. Rather than creating more competition it is created immensely powerful new monopolists like Google and Amazon. Andrew Keen
In Andrew Keen's new book, The Internet Is Not the Answer, he presents a big-picture look at what the Internet is doing to our society (in his opinion), and an investigation into what we can do to try to make sure that the decisions we are making about the reconfiguring of our world do not lead to unpleasant, unforeseen aftershocks.
"The equivalent of 19th century industrial pollution today is data."
How to Focus and Be More Productive
"The biggest price we pay for surrendering our attention is productivity at work. Estimates of the loss of productivity in the workplace due to screen sucking, time wasted online or in front of a screen, as well as other distractions vary widely, but all are in big numbers. A study published in Inc. magazine in 2006 estimated that $282 billion was lost annually in teh United Stated to screen sucking." Dr. Ned Hallowell
Welcome to a special Big Picture Channel podcast on TotalPicture Radio. Joining Peter Clayton to conduct our conversation with Dr. Ned Hallowell is frequent contributor to TotalPicture Radio, David Dalka.
Peter Clayton writes: "Today's interview has special meaning to me. In 1995, I was diagnosed with ADD. Shortly after this discovery, I read Driven to Distraction - Recognizing and Coping with Attention Deficit Disorder, written by Dr Hallowell and Dr. John Ratley. This book was a godsend for me, and helped explain many of the difficulties and challenges I had -- especially in dealing with personal relationships. Most importantly, it helped me to understand that I was not a bad, selfish, uncaring person."
Hey podcast listeners, let me ask you a few questions. Have you ever felt...
- A heightened distractibility and persistent feeling of being rushed or in a hurry, even when there no need to be, combined with a mounting feeling of how superficial your life has become: lots to do, but not depth of thought or feeling.
- An inability to sustain lengthy and full attention to a thought, a conversation , an image a paragraph, a diagram, a sunset -- or anything else, even when you try to.
- A growing tendency toward impatience, boredom, dissatisfaction, restlessness, irritability, frustration, or frenzy, sometimes approaching panic.
- A tendency to hop from task to task, idea to idea, even place to place.
If you've answered yes to any or all of the above, you've come to the right podcast!
A graduate of Harvard College and Tulane School of Medicine, our guest today, Dr. Edward M. Hallowell is a child and adult psychiatrist and the founder of The Hallowell Center for Cognitive and Emotional Health in Sudbury, MA and New York City. He was a member of the faculty of the Harvard Medical School from 1983 to 2004 until he retired to devote his full professional attention to his clinical practice, lectures, and the writing of books, the latest is titled Driven to Distraction at Work, published by Harvard Business Review Press -- available today, January 6th and the focus of this interview. In 1994, Ned coined the phrase "Attention deficit trait, or ADT, based on his observations at that time to be and increasingly comment problem in the modern workforce.
"It is stating the obvious but Sony had more than a movie hacked. And, next week when the media moves to the next shiny object the ripples will have just begun to spread." Gerry Crispin
Here's what our good friend, Gerry Crispin, recently posted on the LinkedIn HR Technology Group regarding the recent Sony Pictures debacle:
Personal contact information, compensation, etc.- HR information was stolen and made available in interesting ways. I don't know the details and it certainly wasn't the first time but, I'm betting:
- Several hundred if not thousands of CEOs are right now having someone do a vulnerability assessment...and they aren't too concerned about that someone's vacation or holiday being interrupted.
- Very soon the people inside will be making requests for additional help.
- Very soon the consultants brought in on an expedited project basis (read top price) will be suggesting that fixes be made of old technology and new technology paid for and installed on an priority basis. They will also recommend additional experts be hired, audits planned for and risks accounted for by insurance.
- Reqs for professionals with significant SKEs (subject knowledge enhancement) related to security technologies will be opened and sourcers will be going to work under heavier than normal pressure...
You Better Watch Out, You Better Comply. We're Going to Tell You Why in this Podcast
Does your company hire contract or contingent workers? If so, you'll want to have a listen to this podcast.
According to Aberdeen Research, 27 percent of the total workforce is expected to be contingent labor by 2015. That's next year people! Since attending the HRO Today Forum in Philadelphia, I've developed a renewed interest in the "free agent nation" the contingent workforce.
This is Peter Clayton reporting, welcome to a Big Picture Channel Podcast on TotalPicture Radio.It started with Gene Zaino, president and CEO of MBO Partners. His presentation at the conference got my wheels spinning, resulting in an interview with Gene (see the sidebar for the link to Gene's podcast), and a blog post on RecruitingBlogs.com with the catchy headline, "Screw Your Cubicle Farm." Gene came to our interview loaded with statistics and advice.
We're going to follow that up today with another expert in the contingent workforce, Nathan Gibson, Vice President of Payrolling and Contractor Solutions at Randstad Sourceright. Nathan wrote an article for the May issue of HRO Today Magazine titled Declaring Independent Workers. As Nathan noted in his article, "Federal and state regulators are focused on independent contractors for a number of reasons." Tune-in now for an in-depth understanding of "why?".
TotalPicture Radio Transcript: Nathan Gibson, Randstad Sourceright Airdate: June 10, 2014, Big Picture Channel.
Does your company hire contract or contingent workers? If so, you'll want to have to listen to this podcast.
Welcome to TotalPicture Radio. We produce cutting edge video and podcast interviews with a focus on talent acquisition, HR technology, leadership and innovation. Visit our conference and events page on TotalPicture Radio, that's totalpicture.com to learn about TotalPicture medias, unique video and podcast service offerings at many of the must-attend trade shows and conferences throughout the year, like SHRM Annual June 22nd through the 25th. We'll be teaming up with Sarah White, shooting thought leader interviews and client testimonials. That's the conference and events page on totalpicture.com.
According to Aberdeen Research, 27% of the total workforce is expected to be contingent labor by 2015. That's next year, people. Since attending the HR today forum in Philadelphia, I've developed a renewed interest in the free agent nation, a.k.a., the contingent workforce.
This is Peter Clayton reporting. Welcome to a Big Picture Channel podcast on TotalPicture Radio. It started with Gene Zaino, President and CEO of MBO Partners. His presentation at the conference got my wheels spinning, resulting in an interview with Gene and a blog post on recruitingblogs.com with a catchy headline, "screw your cubicle farm." Gene came to our interview loaded with statistics and advice. We're going to follow that up today with another expert in the contingent workforce Nathan Gibson, Vice President of Payrolling and Contractor Solutions at Randstad Sourceright.
Nathan wrote an article for the May issue of HRO Today Magazine titled, "Declaring Independent Workers." As Nathan noted in his article, federal and state regulators are focused on independent contractors for a number of reasons, and we're going to learn about that today.
Nathan, welcome to TotalPicture Radio.
Nathan: Peter, thanks for having me.
Peter: You warn in your article in the HRO Today Magazine that engaging independent contractors can present very significant risks if it's not done carefully. Can you give us some examples of what you mean?
Nathan: Well, right now independent contractors are being scrutinized by a lot of different government agencies for different reasons. The IRS is interested in whether workers are classified as an independent contractor or employee because they're looking for companies to withhold payroll taxes from workers. So if you're an employee, your company will withhold your social security taxes, your Medicare taxes, your income taxes, but if you're an independent contractor the company doesn't do that. So the IRS loves employees and really is skeptical of independent contractors because they prefer the ability to collect the taxes.
The Department of Labor, on the other hand, is more interested in protecting workers rights under various labor laws. An employee has protections for overtime, for workers compensation, family and medical leave and those protections aren't given to independent contractors. So the Department of Labor is interested in pointing out if you classify someone as an independent contractor or an employee because they want to protect the workers and they're worried that companies are going to classify workers of independent contractors to avoid giving them some of the labor law protections.
State agencies are also interested in the classification because they collect unemployment taxes off of employees but they don't collect unemployment taxes off of independent contractors. So with the recent recession, a lot of the state unemployment funds have really been depleted, and so state agencies will be looking at whether or not you classify someone as an independent contractor or an employee because they want to collect more in terms of unemployment taxes.
Finally, the independent contractor himself may one day wake up and say, 'hey, you know, I should have been an employee all along. I worked tons of overtime. I'm going to now sue the company because they should have paid me overtime.' Or they may wake up and file for unemployment claims after the assignment is over and then all of sudden that may trigger an audit with the state agency.
For all these different reasons, people are looking at the classification between of a worker that's either an independent contractor or an employee, and if you don't do it right then you can get yourself in trouble and people will come in and audit your company and spend a lot of time and hassle when really it could have been avoided if done right upfront.
Peter: So following up on that and quoting from your article, "If the company has the right to control the manner and means of how the work is performed, the worker is an employee." And I'd like you to expand on that a little bit.
Nathan: The right to control really is at the heart of the question of whether or not a worker is an employee or an independent contractor. Really the question is, is the worker independent, and the core of the independent question is, how much control does the company have.
All of the tests around independent contractors look at how much control the company has over the worker. The IRS looks at things like behavioral control and financial control and then the relationship of the parties. Many states have adopted what is known as the ABC test. The first part of that test is that the individual must be free from the direction and control of the company. He really must be working independently. And so it goes back to a concept in tort law where if you were an agent of someone and they had the right to control you, if you caused damage then the principal would then be responsible for the damages.
So this goes back a long way in terms of if somebody working for you and if they cause damages then are you responsible for it? So control factors include things like, do you provide training to the worker? Do you say the worker has to work on your premises? Do you set the hours that the worker has to work? Things of that nature really define how much control the company has over a worker and whether or not they'll be considered independent contractor or not.
Peter: So obviously things like being a seasonal temp worker mean that you are an employee.
Nathan: Right. One of the classic examples we talk about is a receptionist. The receptionist almost always is going to be an employee. The company sets the hours, tells him or her where they ought to sit, how to answer the phone and then trains them on how to use the phone system and they usually get paid hourly.
In contrast something like a web designer could easily be an independent contractor. The company would say, hey, I need a website; the web designer could off and work, set his own hours, work from whenever he wants, he doesn't receive any training and provides the result at the end of the project and gets paid a lump sum for the project.
Peter: I want to get back into your article here. You list best six practices for compliance and I want to discuss several of them with our audience today, starting with number one, "Document all engagements with a written agreement."
Nathan: A written contract is really enormously helpful in documenting the relationship between the parties. It's not an absolute safe harbor because regulators will look at to see what really what happened and what were the realities with the situation but it becomes extremely useful to show what the parties intended and what elements of control are there. All the elements of control we talked about earlier you can put into a contract and use that to defend your classification of a worker. You can say where the worker has to work, can the worker pick their own hours, things of that nature enables you... if you do unfortunately get audited you can say this is what the relationship is, you can see by the contract we did not exercise much control, it gives the auditor something to work from he will then basically document what's in the written contract. He may ask you certain questions, he'll ask the worker certain questions, and if all ties together and is explained in a written document, it gives you a terrific defense if you end up in an audit.
Peter: And you caution that employers should hire independent contractors who have established themselves as a business.
Nathan: It's another key thing to do. It's not that you can't hire someone the first time out. You can't be their first job but it just makes things an awful lot harder. It's always better to engage with an independent contractor who has been around for years and has lots of clients. A lot of states have what they call the economic reality test. They look at the economic reality of their situation and if they are someone who is working only for you and working 40 hours a week for you and working multiple years for you, they're going to take a look at that and say, you know, the reality of the situation this person really is just working for this one client and they really should be considered to be an employee. There's a specific part of the ABC test where the third part specifically asks, is the worker customarily engaged in independent established trade? So you really are much better off if you find someone who has been in business for a number of years who has multiple clients who is relying solely on you for their income or for their work because that enables you to say look, this person really does have independence here, which as I said, is the heart of the question about an employee versus independent contractor.
Peter: Right. And obviously companies like Gene's like MBO Partners and many of the temp staffing agencies out there provide that firewall to employers because you're not hiring that person directly. You're hiring that person through another agency.
Nathan: Absolutely. We highly recommend using a staffing firm or Gene's company or somebody who is well-versed in the classification of workers, who understands the ins and outs of state laws and the federal law to make sure people get classified properly.
In some states for example, I live in Massachusetts, and Massachusetts has a one rule for independent contractors for the purpose of payroll taxes the revenue department and a different rule for independent contractors for the Department of Labor and what's enforced by the attorney general. So even though in Massachusetts we've got two different rules for how to classify independent contractors, and so we highly recommend using or consulting with people who are highly skilled and are familiar with the ins and outs of the laws.
Peter: Here's one that should raise red flags but I would guess some of our listeners you say, "exercise extreme caution when contracting with former employees." I know a number of people who boomerang back into a former employer in a consulting role.
Nathan: It is. It's a common occurrence and it's one that raises lots of red flags. If you are working for a company in January and you have a certain set of responsibilities and perform certain tasks, and then you retire and come back in March as an independent contractor basically doing the same tasks and the same responsibilities, the IRS is going to say, well, what changed? If you were an employee in January, why aren't you an employee in March? And the answer usually is, well, I didn't want to have them take out taxes. That's not a good reason for the IRS. The IRS is going to say...
Peter: I'm sure.
Nathan: ... well, I'm now an independent contractor. Why did you become an independent contractor? Well, I didn't want to pay all those taxes. Boom. And then you're done.
If you're doing the same thing as what you were doing before, or if you're doing the same thing as somebody you're sitting right next to and you're an employee and the other person is an independent contractor that makes it really hard to say - to defend to the IRS or another agency that this person really is independent and that they're doing the same thing that they used to be doing when they were an employee.
Peter: Number 5 on your list is, engage independent contractors for non-core work. Unpack that for us, please.
Nathan: Core work is really the main business to business does. A CPA firm hires accountants, a law firms engages with lawyers, a hospital engages with nurses. It is hard in those settings for the CPA firm to hire an accountant to work for them full time who is not an employee. It's hard for a law firm to hire a lawyer and say that he is not an employee. If you're doing what the business really is set out to do and they're doing the main focus of the business then that's really going to be a core work and it's going to be hard to say that person is exercising a lot of independence because it's really your core business.
On the other hand, if a law firm hires somebody to clean the offices at night or to paint the offices, that's really not their core business. They don't do cleaning on a daily basis. They don't do painting on a regular day-to-day basis. It's a lot easier to justify that person for bringing in a special skill that the company doesn't have to come in and perform services that the company doesn't usually perform. It's a lot easier to be able to justify that and say, yup, that person is independent. We don't know much about what they do and therefore, we don't have a lot of control over what they do. They are independent from what we do.
For your core business, it's hard to say you don't want to exercise control, you don't have the skills or the knowledge or the expertise to control that area. Your core business is stuff you ought to be up to speed on and you ought to exercise control over it because that's your core business.
Peter: That's really interesting. Back to your early example, if a CPA firm brings in a web developer to design a website for them that's certainly something that could be viewed as an independent contractor.
Nathan: Absolutely. My favorite example is the plumber. When you hire the plumber to come to your house, he comes to your house, he's got his truck, it says Dave's Plumbing. You tell him the toilet upstairs is all backed up. He brings his own tools, he goes in, he fixes it and then he sends you a bill. That really is the essence of an independent contractor.
On the other hand, if I'm hiring somebody to watch my kids and I tell them I want you to pick them up t at 2:30, I want you to take them to the park, I want you to feed them this for dinner, then you're giving an awful lot of instructions and that person really begins to look like an employee.
Peter: So I guess the moral of this story is that this is very complex and different states have different rules and regulations and you really have to be very, very careful in embracing the free agent nation that's growing out there.
Nathan: You're absolutely right. I think this is a very challenging time for companies because there are more and more highly skilled individuals who are entrepreneurial, who want to establish their own business, want to be out on their own. At the same time, you have a lot of scrutiny for those type of positions. So you want the skills and there are number of studies out there that show that there is a skills gap between available talent that's out in the market and what companies need. So you want the skills and you want to be able to engage with these highly skilled people; at the same time you need to be careful because either the IRS or the Department of Labor or any number of people are looking at these arrangements to make sure that you've done it correctly.
Peter: Nathan, thank you so much for taking time to speak with us today on TotalPicture Radio. Is there anything else, any other recommendations you'd like to share with the audience?
Nathan: I think you've covered an awful lot of it. Documenting the work in a written agreement, being very careful about how you set up the arrangement and not exercising a lot of control over independent contractors, and really in hiring employees for your core work are really a few of the basic things that we advise people to do. Again, we strongly suggest using people who are well-versed in this area to help you walk through this if you're going to be engaging with independent contractors.
Peter: Yeah, people like yourself!
Nathan Gibson is Vice President of Payrolling and Contractor Solutions at Randstad Sourceright. Nathan, thanks again for taking time to speak with us today.
Nathan: Peter, thanks for having me. I appreciate it a lot.
Be sure to visit Nathan Gibson's show page for a complete transcript of this interview, resource links and much more information available in the Big Picture Channel of TotalPicture Radio, that's totalpicture.com. While there, sign up for our newsletter. It's quick, easy and free. Connect with our TotalPicture Radio community on Facebook and follow me on Twitter @peterclayton and @totalpicture. I'm happy to connect on LinkedIn to our listeners; just be sure to indicate that you listen to TotalPicture Radio.
Thanks for joining us today.
Questions Peter Clayton asks Nathan Gibson in this Podcast
You warn in your article that engaging independent contractors can present risks if not done carefully. Give us some examples of what you mean.
Following up on that and quoting from your article, "If the company has the right to control the manner and means of how the work is performed, the worker is an employee." Could you expand on that for us please?
Your article lists six best practices for compliance - I'd like you to discuss several of them with us today, starting with #1 Document all engagements with a written agreement.
You caution that employers should hire independent contractors who have established themselves as a business.
Obviously, companies like Gene's and many of the temp staffing agencies out there provide that firewall to employers.
Here's one that should raise red flags with some of our listeners.. Exercise extreme caution when contracting with former employers. Why? I know a number of people who've boomeranged back to an former employer in a consulting role.
Number 5 on your list. Engage independent contractors for non-core work. Unpack that for us.
So the moral of your story is be very careful when embracing the free agent nation?
More Big Picture Interviews Articles & Podcasts
The War for Top Talent: Gene Zaino, MBO PartnersForecast: By 2018 there will be 24 million independent "free agent" workers in the United States.
Jane Hyun - Flex The New Playbook for Managing Across DifferencesLearning Diversity: the art of switching leadership styles to more effectively work with people who are different from you.
Leerom Segal - The Decoded CompanyKnow Your People Better Than You Know Your Customers: how big data and technology can be applied to transform the workplace into a customized environment that brings out the best from talent.
Real World Staffing - The DocumentaryPeter Clayton talks with Jonathan Weiner, Executive Producer of A Real World Documentary on the Staffing Profession
Bill Kutik Reflects on the Greatest HR Technology Show on Earth for the Past 16 yearsWhat's Bill Kutik's most memorable HR Tech experience? NEW - Watch the video Now!