Susan Warner, Mike Adamo TotalPicture Radio Transcript

Peter: Welcome to a special edition of TotalPicture Radio from ERE Expo Spring in San Diego, California. Podcast coverage on TotalPicture Radio at the 11th Annual ERE Conference is brought to you by Riviera Advisors. A global human resources consulting firm that employs sophisticated levels of expertise and talent acquisition helping organizations improve, enhance, and optimize their corporate recruiting and staffing capabilities. To learn more about how your organization can be benefit from Riviera Advisors real world experience and expertise, visit rivieraadvisors.com or call 800-635-9063. Do it today!

Welcome to a special inside recruiting talent acquisition channel podcast on TotalPicture Radio. This is Peter Clayton reporting. At the recent ERE Expo Spring 2011 Conference in lovely San Diego, California. My good friend and TotalPicture Radio sponsor Jeremy Eskenazi moderated a session titled; In Therapy: The Complex Relationship Between Recruiters and Human Resources Generalists.

Today, I have on the show the two brave individuals who shared the stage with Jeremy. Susan Warner, the director of corporate human resources for FMC Corporation, a global specialty chemical manufacturing firm, where she has responsibility for the development and delivery of corporate human resources programs and service; and Mike Adamo, director, global talent acquisition for Edwards Lifesciences, the global leader in the science of heart valves and hemodynamic monitoring.

For those of you listening to this podcast who are not in the recruiting or HR fields, the relationship between these two critical roles within organizations is often times not very pleasant. In fact, it can be downright adversarial.

Sue and Mike, thanks so much for taking time to speak with us here on TotalPicture Radio... Jeremy acted more as a therapist than a moderator in your session, drawing on his experience leading the global staffing functions for companies such as Universal Studios, IdeaLabs, and Amazon.com.

So let's start with the big picture. Sue, in general, what creates friction between HR and recruiting from your perspective?

Susan: I think the friction is predominantly caused by a lack of agreement around roles. So in essence, role clarity, I think, drives a lot of the friction.

Peter: And Mike, from your perspective, I'm going to ask you the same question; what is that drives recruiters crazy about HR departments?

Mike: Peter, I think that what recruiters crazy about HR is probably three things. One is the tendency of HR business partners to really manage the access in relationship with the hiring manager.

Secondly, when HR business partners don't trust the recruiter and they doubt the credibility of the recruiter's actions, and sometimes have the tendency to either intentionally or unintentionally undermine the credibility of the recruiter.

And then third, I think recruiters are really concerned about times where the business partner slows the hiring process and really doesn't work at the same pace or intensity as the recruiter.

Peter: I want to come back to some of those points, but how has the recession affected the relationship between recruiters and HR generalists? Sue, Jeremy mentioned that a number of HR generalists have found themselves in a recruiting role as companies have cut staff.

Susan: I think that that is absolutely true. I think the recession's impacted our ability to leverage recruiters, and it has often required generalists to actually not only do the work of a generalist or a business partner, but to put on a recruiting hat as well. And I think it has impacted our ability, also, to financially even contract with third party agencies to assist with recruiting needs.

Peter: Mike, from your perspective, has the recession affected your relationship with your HR counterparts?

Mike: Peter, specifically in our company and in the medical device industry; because we're focused on healthcare and we're a non-cyclical growth industry, it has not had quite the effect that it has had on other industries. However, what I have heard is two different stories from my colleagues. So in many ways, it's weakened the relationship between the business partner and the recruiter, because, hey, when there are a lot of candidates coming in, who needs recruiters?

On the other side of it, it's help to build empathy between the recruiter and HR generalists because when you do have a generalist that because of economic constraints has had to take on recruiting responsibilities, I think it really builds their appreciation and understanding for the value of what a recruiter does and they really appreciate it once they are able to get a recruiter in the mix to help with some of that workload.

Peter: You came from a role working as a third party contingency recruiter. You were actually, as you mentioned in the session, you are trained to avoid dealing with HR.

Mike: Yeah, Peter. From the first week as a contingency recruiter as an executive search guy, a big piece of the training that they provide at many of the large search firms is how to avoid HR and go direct to the managers. And so I've seen that relationship really be damaged by those behaviors as an outside recruiter and also as a corporate recruiter. As you go into an organization, you learn that there are some really great ways to leverage that relationship to really become a lot more effective.

Peter: Sue, one comment that Mike made earlier was regarding the friction between HR and recruiting is the fact that that HR often times slows the hiring process down. Can you talk to us from your perspective?

Susan: I think that there is a perception that HR generalists will slow the process down. I think instead looking at it from a different perspective, the HR generalists, HR business partners, actually help to facilitate the process and that as a partner to the hiring manager, will help with the screening of candidates not necessarily on with respect to technical skills, but may be more in terms of behavioral competencies and kind of cultural fit for an organization. And oftentimes, hiring managers who… and back to your question about recession, are operating themselves with less resources are burdened with trying to deliver results that often will put the recruiting process kind of on the back-burner and at that point often, the HR partner will step in and almost act as a proxy for the hiring manager, and I think at those times in particular there's the perception that is presented that the HR partners probably slowing the process when in fact that they're helping with the process by looking at it with a different eye than just the hiring manager would and the goal would be not only to actually just look at getting a position filled, but looking at also pipeline talent. So can we get this position filled with this person do just as good enough job, or is this talent that we can help identify to bring in that not would only be successful in this role, but may also be future pipeline talent for us and other key roles in the organization. And so there are some additional, let's say, filters or lenses that are placed in that process that at first blush look like it may slow the process but in actuality, is really going to help make it a much more fruitful productive process.

Peter: Mike, would you agree with that? I've heard a lot of situations where if you're talking with a very high potential candidate who may be interviewing with several companies and there's competition going on, to me that would really be a recipe for even creating more tension between the two departments.

Mike: Yes, Peter. There can be a lot of tension that's created between the business partner and the recruiter about timing; but when I look at that tension and how it's created, one of the things to go back to sort of basic training that recruiters receive and that basic training to "avoid" the generalists or the business partners – one of the other things that many recruiters receive in their basic training is a truism about candidate management, which is there are no bad candidates, there are things that recruiters missed or bad recruiting moves that recreate bad candidates. In many ways that same mantra applies to the business partner relationship, is that if we look inside at ourselves as recruiters and how we interact and communicate with the business partners, often times what we find when there's a situation where there is an out of sync timing between the business partner and the recruiter. It comes down to how expectations were set, how the communications have occurred, and so all of a sudden, the recruiter thinks they are at a certain point ready to go on the offer and the business partner is like, "Hey, wait a minute, what's going on here?" And so if the recruiter really looks inside and says what can I do to keep my partner in sync with where I need to go and what the timing is? All of a sudden, those issues start to go away.

Peter: Sue, I wanted to ask you a question that Jeremy brought up. How do you define success as an HR generalist? Is your role primarily a reactive one?

Susan: I think that it is in some organizations but ultimately, the idea and I think the evolution of the HR role is such that it's not necessarily reactive anymore, but it's much more of a proactive role, where we can really be a partner to management in terms of having the partner with us, giving them tools, helping them to really manage their human capital then companies can duplicate processes, but the people are really what gives an organization that is competitive advantage and so HR generalists, HR business partners really will bring some of those tools, those processes, the systems to help an organization through it's managers do a good job at managing that human capital. So it's not just reactionary.

I think oftentimes – and it's part of just the evolution is that – years ago… 20 years or so ago, there wasn't HR, there was just personnel departments. And as it evolved, the role of the HR generalist has evolved, and so those metrics for success have also evolved. So in the past where it was very transactional, it would be making sure certain pieces of paper were completed or certain things were done and the checklist was completed. It's now evolved where it's much more consultative and so you'll find that as that relationship with an HR person and the management evolved. Those metrics are evolving.

I think right now in many organizations the success is based upon the relationship; so how much does management rely upon HR to provide insight, to provide guidance, to provide input; and I think often times those are more of the soft metrics that are used. There are some organizations that I have actually worked in and that I have colleagues who currently work in where HR has actual metrics in place that they're able to use to kind of better ascertain their success in terms of their impact on a business's bottom line.

But I would say for most organizations it's not quite there in terms of the metrics and it is mostly based upon the relationship; how well does the manager or managers that the HR person supporting like that person and will go to that person for advice, for guidance, to assist with the employee problems, to get coaching, and to receive consultation and some of those people issues.

Peter: Mike, Jeremy mentioned that success for a recruiter is often positive outcomes. Finding and hiring that perfect candidate. Is that how you define success?

Mike: In the simplest view, yes absolutely. As Jeremy said in our presentation. We really do puff up our chests and see a lot of value in seeing all those great talented people walk around the organization and take on increased responsibilities.

From a broader perspective, I think one of the things that recruiting leadership can do to drive more success is to not only measure their recruiters on the jobs they get filled, but also to look at those measures of success like how is the relationship between the HR business partner and the recruiter. How does that recruiter get those jobs filled? Because it's a cycle; the relationship between business partners and recruiters, I think in many companies starts with a very territorial introduction, where the generalists or business partner feels like the recruiters taking something away and who is this person, how are they going to work together, and many companies never gets past that, because the focus from leadership and the individuals involve doesn't get pass there. But in companies that really thrive and grow, what happens is that relationships starts to form that credibility and trust starts to form, and then, before you know it, the business partner is looking to recruiting to take on pieces of this operational process that will allow the business partner to get freed up and to rise up from the day to day casual pieces and really be that strategic partner with their customer and know that certain tactical or operational pieces of HR are being executed.

Peter: You're bringing up something that did seem to be a reoccurring theme in your presentation, and that was defining the roles and responsibilities between HR and recruiting, correct?

Mike: Yeah, one of the biggest keys to success is finding a way to define those roles and responsibilities and I think there's a lot of vehicles can be used to do that. One of the most successful that we found within our organization and within other organizations that I've seen is to use some sort of process mapping to get the generalist, business partners, and recruiters in the room and talk about the recruiting process, and talking about roles and responsibilities, and how we want that to be; and I think once you get really a deeper understanding from both sides on what roles people can play to be productive in this process, all of a sudden you can see in that room, you can see in that relationship those light bulbs go on and it goes from my candidate, my manager, my hire to our process, our company, our relationship, our success.

Peter: Sue, you started out this interview talking about the need for very clear roles and responsibilities within the functions. In the presentation you stressed the need for better communications and being very clear about setting expectations.

Susan: Yes, I think that's very important and I agree 100% with what Mike has just shared. I think that it starts with understanding that there is a shared goal here that they're not working against each other, and having those communications at the very beginning of the process and understanding who can do what, so that you're really actually creating that partnership and when there some points in the relationship where there is friction, communication, communication, communication, you can't have enough of it. I think it's important and it's communication not just between the recruiter and the HR generalist, but it's communication with the hiring manager and making sure that both of the recruiter and the HR generalists are communicating the same message to the hiring managers.

Peter: Let's talk about the hiring manager, because as Jeremy said there is a competition for the love of the hiring manager. Sue, have you seen this first hand?

Susan: Absolutely, and I can share with you numerous stories where HR generalists will protect and… in their eyes, protect the hiring manager from the recruiters. Recruiters have often been viewed as having one aim in mind and working to the exclusion of the HR generalists. And at times, we have tried to step in front of the hiring managers so that all communications will go through HR before being delivered to the hiring managers so that we're operating as the filter.

Peter: Mike, is it critical for you to have direct access to the hiring manager in this process?

Mike: It is critical that recruiters have direct access and a direct relationship with the hiring manager, specifically… I think what drives a lot of this are recruiters are influencers. A big portion of their job is influencing the hiring manager's decisions and I think that's the part that can potentially scare or drive a wedge between business partners and recruiters is because many times, the business partner has a very different perspective and they're concerned that because the relationship and credibility doesn't exist between the recruiter and the business partner, they're now concerned on what the recruiter is trying to influence and does that fit where the business partner and the company is going. And so it's a little bit of a double edged sword here because to be effective, a recruiter needs to be able to influence; to be effective, a recruiter needs to have credibility with the business partner that what they're influencing is driving at that shared vision of where the company and where the business partner and where the manager need to go.

I think it's very troublesome when the relationship… when organizations get to the point where business partners and recruiters are so distrustful of each other that they don't feel comfortable with that recruiter talking directly with the manager. That's a symptom that that relationship really needs some very special work.

Peter: As you said in your session, you really have to have a trust and respect for that HR generalist partner that you're working with to make these relationships work.

Susan: I agree. I think that that's extremely important and as I was sharing earlier, in order to really build that trust, it starts with communication.

Peter: I'd like to ask both of you a two-part question to finish up here. Sue, what did you take away from you're session with Mike and Jeremy?

Susan: They were a number of takeaways. I think first, one of the things that I think was affirming for me and just confirmed may be what I was believing was the fact that… again, it's the communication creating that relationship, establishing that trust is very important for both parties to be successful, meaning the recruiters and the generalist.

I think one of the most interesting pieces for me that I don't think I was cognizant of was really what Mike actually even shared again today was the training that recruiters get in terms of how to deliver their result. And what they are taught about the role of the HR generalist. I think that to me was a bit of an "aha," it didn't really… I don't know that I really was cognizant to that. So that was a very key takeaway which I think will absolutely inform future interactions for me for sure.

Peter: And Mike, what did you takeaway from your session with Sue and Jeremy.

Mike: The biggest thing that I took away and I always kind of felt this and saw this, but it became crystal clear as we talked about this subject and researched it more and got deeper into it, is that recruiters have the responsibility of building this relationship. All too often, we brush it aside and we focused on the mission and we try to fill the job to the detriment of this relationship and both as a person who works for acquisitions and hires people myself, and a leader who manages recruiters, and helps others through the struggle, the biggest thing that I see if that we need to take ownership and responsibility for making this relationship important and building that up because when it is successful, it is far better than a lone ranger recruiter just filling those racks.

Peter: And finally, what did you take back to your company, Mike. Was there anything you heard or learned at ERE that you shared with your staff?

Mike: The biggest thing I took back was that we as a team are continuing to focus on this relationship between generalist and recruiters. Maybe it's because it's what we worked on, but we're really excited about making our relationship between our generalist and our recruiters the very best that it can be.

Peter: And Sue, how about you?

Susan: I would have to say that that would be the same for me and what I was able to bring back was really the value that recruiters bring and how we can take some of the lesions that I was able to learn from the ERE and then how we can apply them here in the organization where I am so that we can create better relationships and really more of a partnerships. So I've actually started to do some of that here with my team and I think everyone is really exited about understanding kind of what productive role they can play in creating improved relation.

Peter: Sue and Mike, thank you so much for taking time to speak with us today on TotalPicture Radio. I really enjoyed seeing you out in San Diego.

Susan: Thank you.

Mike: Thank you, Peter.

We've been speaking with Susan Warner, the director of corporate human resources at FMC Corporation; and Mike Adamo, director, global talent acquisition for Edwards Lifesciences.

You'll find a link on Riviera Advisors blog titled, Together We Are ONE: HR, where you can watch the video from ERE Expo and a special video produced for the In Treatment: The Complex Relationship Between Recruiters and Human Resources Generalists. Go to rivieraadvisors.com, click on the newsroom and events link and then on Riviera Advisors blog insights from the Riviera.

TotalPicture Radio is interested in hearing from you, our listeners. Please share your thoughts and opinions on our podcast today. Visit totalpicture.com to add your voice to this discussion, and be sure to bookmark rivieraadvisors.com/podcasts for a growing library of thought provoking, in depth interviews, focused on the emerging issues surrounding talent acquisition confronting HR leaders today. And remember, on our website you'll find the complete transcripts from these informative interviews. To learn more about Riviera Advisors real world experience in leading and managing corporate internal recruiting and staffing functions, please call toll free 800-635-9063 or visit rivieraadvisors.com.

Riviera Advisors is a member of the ASHER Talent Alliance, a global alliance of talent acquisition providers working together to benefit the unique and individual needs of their clients. To learn more about ASHER, visit ashertalent.com.

This is Peter Clayton reporting. Thank you for tuning in to TotalPicture Radio, the voice of career and leadership acceleration.

Watch the video: In "Therapy: The Complex Relationship Between Recruiters and Human Resources Generalists." From of ERE.