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Andrew Gadomski Real Data, Real Power. The Real Deal

Aspen Advisors has teamed up with the Global Strategic Management Institute, (GSMI), to create Talent Congress

AndrewAndrew Gadomski

Numbers. Businesses love numbers: CEOs, CFOs, CMOs, CHROs love numbers. Numbers that provide insights: a clear picture, actionable information, trends, analysis.

Meet Andrew Gadomski's Talent Congress. A radical approach to understanding your sourcing, recruiting, talent acquisition, retention, employer brand, and competitive positioning.

Here's the deal: Talent Congress Serves up Workforce Analytics, Real-time Candidate Experience, World Class Conferences. All in One. Stop and think about that.

Delegates receive ongoing data tracking of their recruiting and employment branding processes all year long. Gain insights in your candidate experience, hiring manager satisfaction, onboarding and exiting processes, requisition tracking, social media usage, recruiter productivity, and more.

Welcome to a Big Picture Channel podcast with host Peter Clayton. In our interview with Andrew Gadomski, recorded at the recent Employer Branding Strategies Conference (#EBrandCon) in Chicago, you'll learn about Talent Congress, (developed in association with GSMI), and how this tool can be used to up your talent acquisition objectives by organizing massive amounts of your data, and serving it up to your mobile devices in real time.


INTRO: Welcome to TotalPicture. Today's Big Picture Channel podcast is brought to you by JobsinPods, a powerful social media recruiting tool where real employers talk about their jobs and how to get them. Jobs in Pods jobcast provide job advertising, employer branding and employee recognition all on one platform. Visit jobsinpods.com and check out our latest jobcast with the CEO and SVP of Sales at ClickSoftware.

Numbers, businesses love numbers. CEOs, CFOs, CMOs, CHROs all love numbers, numbers that provide insights, a clear picture, actionable information, trends, analysis - whatever you do, you should love numbers too. And today on TotalPicture is the smartest numbers guy I know - Andrew Gadomski. Andrew is the founder of Aspen Advisors, a human capital consultancy that specializes in big data and business process design. Meaning that Andrew puts context and meaning to numbers, lots and lots and lots of numbers that have become known as big data.

Welcome to a Big Picture Channel podcast. I'm your host, Peter Clayton. In my interview with Andrew, recorded at the recent Employer Branding Strategies Conference, #EBrandCon in Chicago, you'll learn about Talent Congress and how this tool can be used to up your talent acquisition objectives by organizing massive amounts of your data and serving it up to your mobile device in real time. And now, enjoy our conversation with Andrew Gadomski.

Peter: Andrew, first of all, thanks for joining us again here on TotalPicture.

Andrew: Thanks so much, Peter. It's been a long time since you and I chatted and always good to catch up with you.

Peter: I want to talk to you about what you are doing with the EBranding Conference with Kara (Mignanelli) and this whole organization. You are working in concert with the thing called the Talent Congress. So, give us some background.

Andrew: Kara and I have been working together. She's been producing the Social Recruiting Strategies Conferences, as well as EBrandCon for the better part of five years. So she's had me as a speaker and a number of other people repeatedly and really gotten to know the GSMI organization. GSMI does a lot more than just the three conferences a year related to recruiting. They actually also have a specialization in doing conferences related to digital marketing and also social branding and so on, really on the marketing side.

So, as our business has evolved and as I become more invested working with Kara, we came up with a joint venture called the Talent Congress, where now what we'll do is our firm offers employment branding, social recruiting and then recruiting an analytics for the attendees of these three conferences.

What we've done is we basically have merged Aspen and GSMI just as a joint venture in this Talent Congress, where now people can come to the conferences throughout the year, meet with their peers and learn and get training, but they can also provide data from their applicant tracking systems, their CRMs, social media, costs, and we do the analysis for them. We reveal at the conference in specialized sessions. We do benchmarking exercises at the conference with them. And then throughout the year, they get different levels of monitoring; so they get real-time candidate experience, real-time hiring manager satisfaction, understanding diversity of their candidates. And then if they want additional analysis on their business, of course they can get it because they're sending us the data.

Peter: Let's dive into this a little bit, because what you were telling me earlier really kind of blew my mind, to be honest with you, about the kind of data that you are able to aggregate on specific recruiters and how that can help them understand who they're competing against, what the marketplace looks like and the areas where they need to up their game.

Andrew: Part of what we designed with the Talent Congress is you want to make it accessible for anybody who wanted to be able to improve their own performance. We have a membership level that is kind of like having a Fitbit for recruiters.

The concept is, is that you can go to our website or to the Talent Congress and you can register as a social subscriber. What you do is you register your Facebook identity or your Twitter handle or your Instagram handle and your @andrewgadomski - So @yourperson. And what we'll do is we'll automatically give you back a set of tools that allows you to track candidate experience, hiring manager satisfaction, requisitions, diversity, how you're dealing with your candidates, back to you, the individual recruiter.

Now what's interesting about that is while you're feeding us data and you're sending out surveys and those types of things to your candidates and hiring managers, we're logging the type of recruiter you are. If you're a recruiter who works for an RPO and you work in say, technology, we will group you with other RPO recruiters in technology and we'll feedback to you how they're doing versus how you're doing. If you're an agency recruiter focusing it on finance, you'll be benched against other agency recruiters on finance, but then you'll also be benched against the RPO recruiters for technology as well if you want.

So the concept is, is we're trying to make people have an accessible tool to track themselves, track their own candidate experience and track their own hiring manager satisfaction quite honestly so they can go back to their bosses and say, 'see boss, look at how I'm doing versus others. It time for a promotion. It's time for me to move up. It's time for me to get different development. Look at what I'm not...' because I just can't assume that every company tracks all this for their recruiters and helps in their development. So I'd rather get the recruiter the ability to handle their own development and then be able to have something concrete so they can become a better recruiter.

Peter: I think something else that you mentioned that's really important in this conversation is diversity, which as you and I know has become very critical to many large organizations, who are actually very actively trying to recruit a diverse slate of candidates. Providing that kind of data must be extremely valuable for those recruiters who opt into this.

Andrew: It is. Diversity has a - as HR personnel, we do a really bad job of having standardization around what we call things. Actually, there's an organization that's striving to do that better, that's the ATAP organization, run with Ben Gotkin and Allison Kruse, who are really trying to pull people together in a body of knowledge to say this is what diversity in recruiting means. So we don't have that yet, but what's interesting is acquiring a diverse slate of candidates is harder than getting just a slate of candidates. I can get four candidates and have them be white male and above the age of 40 probably easier than half female and then a diverse race and ethnicity. And the thing is, recruiters don't have a very good way of tracking that and showing that I'm able to get diverse slates of candidates, not just candidates. And we're trying really hard with this program to make that visible. Because if I can show that 85% of the time I give diversity based slates of candidates, I'm a different kind of recruiter than somebody who can only one out of every two times or one out of every four times.

With veterans really becoming a standard for most organizations right now, that's another level of diversity that we have to be looking at and we're doing that with our program, but it's a skill set that I think we're really going to have to force our recruiters to really think about how they develop themselves.

Peter: I want to go back to what you're doing here with the talent congress memberships. You mentioned that the level one allows a recruiter to see their data insights and it's sent directly to their mobile devices. So, dig a little bit deeper and unpack that for us, Andrew, where is all of this data coming from?

Andrew: What we'll do is will furnish basically an input for the recruiter. So, they go ahead and register, we go ahead then send them a series of links for surveys. So if they want to go ahead and have an understanding of how candidates are feeling and how their peers are feeling or how their hiring managers are feeling, we give them a mechanism to do that. It's an in-moment experience, it's all mobile-ready, people follow a link, they start filling out a form. It looks and feels like as a recruiter, I'm trying to get better and I'm trying to develop myself and can you tell me how I'm doing. So that's one way the data is coming in.

The other way the data is coming in is we give people the ability to upload data, either from spreadsheets or Google sheets or things like that and they can go ahead and send us information on their requisition, or the candidates or the people that they're interviewing.

Now, we don't permit personally identifiable information, so you can't send us names and phone numbers and stuff like that, but I don't need them either. People can go ahead and say, 'this week I had seven interviews happen and here's the protected classes breakdown of those interviews. Here's how they did. And here is the candidate identification number for that person.' What's nice about that is every time somebody takes a quick report out of an ATS or even just tracking on a spreadsheet, I can go ahead and ingest that for that individual recruiter. And so, they're sending it in.

Now, as we move from an individual tracking themselves to a company being involved, companies can register for the Talent Congress as well. So they can actually just go ahead and plug their ATS and CRM and all those solutions right into our platform. And what we'll do is we'll push them out the same sort of alerts and digests and reports on a monthly or a weekly basis. It's actually - I don't want to say it's easy - it's gotten easier over the years. But for us, it's relatively straightforward now. We've been in business for almost 11 years doing this.

Peter: When we had talked before we started recording, you had mentioned that a lot of what this whole process looks like is baseball. You used a baseball metaphor, a baseball analogy. I think that's very helpful in helping people understand how this whole thing works who really aren't into data and analytics.

Andrew: I'm a baseball freak. Anybody who knows me knows that I'm into baseball and I'm into data, which means that I track a lot of stats. What I did is I've come up with a series of algorithms that are based on baseball statistics that help me understand how a recruiter is hitting and fielding. So the data comes in. So basically, here's the broad formula.

Your fielding is determined by your experience ratings. When we field in baseball, if a ball is hit to a second baseman and there's nobody on base, everybody's expecting that they're going to catch the ball, they're going to glove it and they're going to throw it over to first. And if that doesn't happen, there's an error. Everybody knows he threw the ball away. Okay, that was an error. So there's an expectation of what's supposed to happen. That's the experience that we're expecting. So when we have bad experience, we get bad ratings.

So, by taking the combination of the hiring manager satisfaction and the candidate experience satisfaction, I have an understanding of how well a player fields or how a recruiter fields. Now, hitting is a little bit more sophisticated. So what we'll do is we look at how often they work, the number of requisitions that they carry, the numbers of interviews that they have, and we have a set of algorithms that help us equate how they perform on requisitions to singles, doubles, triples, home runs, bunts, stolen bases, strikeouts and more. And what that does is that allows me to actually take a recruiter and match them against a major league baseball player and their live statistics. So I can say that recruiter bats 350, played this many games and is as good as Derek Jeter of the Yankees. They have that kind of track record, and I know that they play for this type of team, I know what order of the bat they should be in, the lineup.

It's quite sophisticated and outside of me talking like this, I probably will not... Jerry Christman has asked me to do a write up on it and I am probably going to do a broad write up because the algorithms are sophisticated like sabermetrics. But what we've done is we've basically made it where I can tell a recruiting leader, this person should work on these types of reqs, they should have this type of workload and they will be a good hitter for you. They'll also be a good second baseman for you, which looks like this.

It's comparable and it's fun. If somebody wants to go and say, 'What kind of player I am?' I'm like, 'Well, who's your favorite baseball team?' 'I'm a fan of the Phillies.' 'Go out to the Phillies, look at their history. Go to mlb.com and here are your stats. Okay. You're Ryan Howard. Do you realize that you're Ryan Howard?' 'No, I didn't know I was that good.' 'Well, go ask for Ryan Howard money.'

Peter: You had mentioned to me that the triple is really the hardest hit out there to make as a recruiter. Can you expand on that?

Andrew: When you're in this set of formulas that I have, one of the hardest things to do in baseball is to get a triple. That means that you've hit the ball in a certain way that you obviously have hit it hard, but you haven't hit it over the wall but you have the athleticism to get all the way around third base. But it also means that you hit it in such a way that you've actually divided the defense, and so it's almost impossible for them to get to you. So the equivalent of that in recruiting is having a full slate of candidates that you sourced all by yourself. You don't have an internal candidate, you don't have employee referrals, you don't have job boards. You went and you hunted and you got three or four candidates and it is a slate of diverse candidates. You got them on your own. That's a triple.

When you think about it, when I look at the data, we don't have that happen too often. Typically what ends up happening is we've got usually a candidate who came in from an employee referrals in the mix or somebody internal is in the mix or somebody came off of like our career page or somebody came off a talent pipeline we had. But to actually go ahead and start from nothing and produce four candidates for a manager when you didn't have anything and you got a diverse slate, that's actually pretty tough to do in recruiting. So that's what we call a triple.

Statistically, we don't see too many triples in our data actually. What's interesting is we don't see agencies do them very often. We see a lot of corporate recruiters do them and we see corporate recruiters do them who are certain kind of hitters. They don't hit a lot of home runs, they hit some doubles but they're fast. They get on base a lot. So what that means is, they're good at getting lots of candidates for hiring managers, usually with a lot of speed. So they tend to actually play in the same space over and over and over again. And then what ends up happening is they become better sourcers. And so what ends up happening is this group of recruiters have like a breed and they're fast, and they're nimble, and they're able to get hits and they're able to stretch all the way to third base. Once in a while in baseball, once in awhile some big guy ends up getting all the way over to third base and he's completely tired when he gets there. But the guys who can hit triples, they're not tired when they get there. They just slide into third base, they get up and they're ready to go. So that's what a triple is.

Peter: You had explained to me that a lot of agency recruiters who work on very high profile assignments, you refer to them as power hitters.

Andrew: Right. So the concept is that a power hitter is someone who's going to hit the ball very hard and everyone's going to kind of cheer. So they usually hit home runs or they hit standup doubles. So, agency recruiters tend to - they might handle one or two people who were referrals or internal, and they might handle that part of the search, but typically they have to source on their own. And so what ends up happening is they'll go ahead and they'll produce a slate of candidates that they had to source on their own. They'll get three or four candidates and choices. They may not always be diverse, but usually they get to two strong, three strong candidates. That's like a double. And so, that's kind of the breed of an agency recruiter.

The other thing that they'll do is they will get you a quick slate of candidates and you'll hire right away. So, a homerun determines a little bit more of speed. So it's like, they'll give you the slate and you'll say yes to the slate on the first shot and you know there's a hire there. That's a homerun.

There are corporate recruiters who do that too, but corporate recruiters tend to submit more résumés than agency recruiters do. It's a broad generalization, but it's unusual for a retained recruiter or a contingency recruiter that knows the hiring manager to send over 15 résumés. They'll send over like a handful, and they'll do the calibration and they'll do the service. While a corporate recruiter might go ahead and just say 'here's the people in your inbox. I like him, I like him, I like him, I like him, I like him. I don't like him, I don't like him.' That kind of happens.

That concept of maybe striking out a little bit more because you're swinging harder happens when you're an agency. You take a little bit more risk, but you hit the ball out more, and that's why they get paid a little bit more too, by the way.

What's interesting about power hitters is that in our system, just like in baseball, a power hitter will have more homeruns, more doubles. Their slugging percentage is higher and also, they will traditionally have a high amount of RBIs. We track all of that in this system. So it's pretty sophisticated that I can look at that and say 'oh yeah, that's a power hitter.' And then if I get a call from somebody who says 'hey, we need someone who really does a great job at this kind of recruiting; if I knew somebody...' I'm like, "What do you really need?" And you say, "You need a power hitter." That's this type of profile, look for these types of people who can tell you about stories where they recruit a certain way. Like I said, that's the difference between a power hitter and a contact hitter. And we have all kinds of recruiters, I don't know why we're not - we should not be lumping them all together. That's the wrong methodology.

Peter: I want to get back to talking about the Talent Congress here. We've talked about your level one, which are the social and the individual recruiter and you're feeding them data and insights to mobile devices in the level two, which is the enterprise-wide recruiting data analytics. You also have a level three, which is team detailed analytics. Can you explain that?

Andrew: Let's say you're a larger scale organization and you tend to have - maybe you could have five recruiters working for you - we have businesses that have 1,500 recruiters working for them. But what you want to see is team is all about your team. That means you want to see how your recruiters are doing in dashboards, their individual performance. You want to see how your business units are operating in the names of the business units. You want to see how your regions are doing, however you've designated your Asia Pacific, which could be different than somebody else's Asia Pacific, which is different than somebody else's Americas and so on and so forth. You want to see your rooftop locations.

We have companies who actually track candidate experience and performance of requisitions and diversity by location. So if you want that kind of insight, you can get it because it's all inside your data. What we do through the Talent Congress is different levels of - from social all the way to team, we reveal different levels of - it's more detailed. We give you more detail as we go. So, team is the most amount of detail and you get it more frequently.

Peter: How much does all this cost?

Andrew: Team cost $7,000 a month and that gives you the ability to highlight 15 recruiters a month. Now, you can have 100 people working for the business. We're tracking 100 people. But as a leader, you really don't look at dashboards or you don't myopically look at a recruiter every single month for every single one of your - you don't do performance analysis every month for every recruiter. So what we do is we kind of give them the ability to take who are the 15 people that you want to see this month. And so they say, 'we want to see these 15.' Okay, great. We turn those dashboards on and you can see everything that's been going on for several months. For those, you can do evaluations, you can do what you want. And then the next month, you can then do the same focus on another 15.

If you need more parking spots, more spotlights is what we call them, fine; you can have 25 spotlights if you want. We've got companies that have few hundred recruiters and they only need to track 20 at a time. That's the $7,000. Right below that is the brand level, which is $3,500 and then below that, it's only $350 a month for the social, for corporate - if at TotalPicture Radio, if you want to track your brand, that's only $350 a month. But we waive that fee I you come to EBrand Con or SRSC.

Peter: I'm curious to understand why this partnership and the relationship with this particular event appeals to you and why you chose to partner with them.

Andrew: There's X dozens of conferences that go on. There are plenty of people who are our peers, who make a living just going to conferences and they've got all kinds of frequent flyer miles. The thing about GSMI that I think is great is that they go beyond just recruiting. So they have any number of other conferences that are around marketing, digital media and so on. The reason that I've partnered with them is because I envisioned tracking performance of companies using data analytics to go beyond recruiting and that's my intent.

Not only do I expect to do well partnering with them on the recruiting side, but I'm expecting, especially with EBrand Con, to start bridging into employment branding, tracking employment branding in real time. That will move into consumer marketing, tracking consumer marketing in time, digital marketing, which they also have conferences for.

So I thought that they had a really nice combination of both marketing and HR, which is where I think, quite honestly, recruiting is going.

Peter: Here's a question for you. You had mentioned to me and again, I think it's important for us to really explain how big data works because so many people who listen to this show may be in recruiting or talent management but they don't really understand the talent analytics and the importance of that data in their overall performance. And you had told me about the fact that when you go into the enterprise level and you're getting all of this data, you're going directly into either their Microsoft or their Google data and pulling that huge amount of information and then parsing it and making sense out of it. Did I explain that right?

Andrew: No, not really. What you and I were talking about is how am I positioning this data back to people. So when we talk about the use of data analytics, the failure of data analytics is the assumption that people are going to log in and check their pulse, right? I'm a big advocate that you should only look at data when you think that there's something wrong. No different than, if I was sweating in this room or if my heart was racing fast, I would feel it and I would say, "Hey, something is wrong with me. I need to go to a doctor." But if I'm just walking around and I feel fine, why would I go to a doctor, right? Same thing with using data analytics; data analytics should be running in the background and then it should tell you when something is probably wrong or is going to be wrong.

So, the way we look at that now - when I started the business many years ago, we had a different way, it was this concept of login and check. But now I walk around and Google on my phone tells me how many steps I did that day. It tells me how much activity I had that day or, 'hey, you're almost done, keep going, keep going.' So we've consumerized our data analytics. Amazon tells us maybe it's time for you to order this again because you probably ran out, or our cars tell us you need to go to the service station because the gas light goes on, but now it automatically schedules our oil changes for us.

I looked at that and said how do I get as many people as possible to feel good about this and getting data analytics. So now what we do is, the data comes into us but we allow people to get it fed back to them in their native applications they see each day. What are those native applications? Google and Microsoft.

We now produce data analytics to our client through Google's Data Studio, which is, if you have Gmail account or if your company uses Google for its office or its mail, you can access the visualizations, which is arguably a large percentage of people. Or if you have Office 365, you can see this data. So if you have a Gmail account or if you have Microsoft Office on your computer or device, you'll be able to see your recruiting data, which is really amazing and you don't need anything other than that native application on your phone, which is Google or Office and everybody has it.

I've kind of moved away from this concept of you have to subscribe to a certain licensing to this concept of, 'I'm going to put the data right in front of you, alongside your email.' And if you can login from a device, you can get and see this data. I think that's a real game changer for everybody because I'm trying to commoditize the fact that you can get to things. If you can get to Google, you can get to us. If you can get to Office, you can get to us.

Peter: I think that's pretty cool and I think you're absolutely right, that's where this whole industry is going. If you look at things like programmatic ad buying, I mean what is that all about. It's looking at data and figuring out who is interested in a particular thing at a particular time and starting to serve up information to them.

Andrew: There's a bunch of companies here that I have to give real props to companies like Randstad who not only have a great service offering, but they also own their own tech stack now. Where you have companies like that that have realized that there's a combination of technology and service, but then accessibility to both quickly. Those are the companies that are really flourishing, and so I've got to stretch our own business to make it where I've got a tech, I've got a service, I've got to make it accessible to everybody because I got to keep up. And maybe we're leading, maybe we're lagging. I don't know. I hope that we're leading and everyone tells me that at least, so I feel pretty comfortable with that.

Peter: One last question for you, Andrew, and I really appreciate your time here today. Obviously you're seeing huge amounts of data every day. What are the trends out there that you are seeing that are going to impact recruiting and talent acquisition this year?

Andrew: Well this year, from a funding mechanism perspective, this year is over. We've already spent our money, we're going to make our budget. So I think what we should be looking for in 2018 or through the rest of the year is, I think that we are starting to see a dichotomy between two types of recruiting where hiring managers are taking on more direct responsibility and they're outsourcing or they're insourcing less. They're taking on more responsibility and some of that has to do with the ease of access to technology. They're able to vet candidates on their own. Employee referrals are up. Contractor conversions are up. So I'm seeing more hiring managers taking on some of the responsibilities that recruiters use to take on and I'm seeing that spread more.

Now the question is, are our recruiters controlling that? How are we doing on training? How are we doing on enabling those hiring managers, because if they're going to take on more work themselves, which is wonderful, are they doing it with compliance? Are they doing it in a way where they're not doing it in the legal fashion? Or are they doing it in the rules of the brand?

Now at the same time, what I'm seeing is a real breakaway from recruiters versus sourcers. So I think what we're seeing now is we're seeing that you either attract people to your brand, you go get them or your corporate HR policies are bringing them to you. So this concept of 'our brand is attracting people into our funnel,' or we've got a group of artificial intelligence or sourcers or what have you who's going out, hunting them down and getting them through any number of mechanisms. Or we've got employee referrals or we're training these people and we're bringing them up. I just wrote something on SourceCon about this; but I think that those three methodologies in big, broad buckets are going to be really well defined in '18.

I think it is programmatic ad buy, it is programmatic branding, automated swapping - all of that is going to be all about brand. We have Chatbots, all of that stuff is brand. All kinds of AI around using different sourcing techniques and assessment techniques to take on hundreds or thousands of candidates at once to really weave them down. Or much better programs of how do we find people who are in our organization to bubble up. I think we're going to see this great separation again where it is brand versus source versus corporate initiative, not just recruiter versus sourcer, which like for one reason or another seems to have kind of occurred I'm a sourcer versus a recruiter. Everybody is trying to get great people, let's all play together.

Peter: Thank you so much, Andrew. What's the best way for our listeners to connect with you?

Andrew: You can find more about the Talent Congress by going to any one of GSMIs websites, but you can go to employerbrandingstrategies.com or socialrecruitingstrategies.com to learn more about the Talent Congress. And you can find more about Aspen Advisors at myaspenadvisor.com.


Andrew Gadomski is the founder of Aspen Advisors. You'll find our interview with many resource links in the Big Picture Channel of TotalPicture. That's totalpicture.com. Thank you for tuning in to our show. We sincerely appreciate your participation. Your comments are welcome on Andrew's show page. While there, please sign up for our free newsletter. You can subscribe to TotalPicture on iTunes, Google Play or SoundCloud and join the conversation on our TotalPicture Radio Facebook group. You'll find me on Twitter @peterclayton, @totalpicture and @jobsinpods.

One more thing before you go, ClickSoftware is hiring sales pros. Check out my jobcast with CEO Tom Heiser on jobsinpods.com. Jobs in Pods, where real employers talk about their jobs and tell you how to get them. Mention TotalPicture when you book your first jobcast for a $50 discount. That's jobsinpods.com.

See you next time and thanks so much for tuning in.

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Peter Clayton

About Peter Clayton

Peter Clayton, Producer/Host, is an award-winning producer/director of radio, television, documentary, video, interactive and Web-based media who has created breakthrough media for a wide array of Fortune 100 clients.


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